She is poor, but she has not been poor for long enough. I do think that it is a huge defense mechanism that people deploy. Who will spend some significant amount of time in poverty. [f] Fierceton felt no ambivalence about her answer. That was my personal statement. This can happen to someone in my community. Teachers at Whitfield who had been supportive while she was there dropped out of touch. MF: Yeah. Anything in particular jump out at you after having read back over that transcript? There were some pretty basic errors, such as my name, my birth name, and my birth place, and claiming that I didnt have a sibling, that I wasnt low-income, a lot of facts that were pretty easily disputed. And you experienced that yourself, right? Fierceton's life story, as well as her self-identification as a "first generation" college student, came under scrutiny by the university when an anonymous email alleged that Fierceton was not. [2], To White, Morrison repeated her story that her daughter had fabricated the abuse allegations. RG: Like questioning: How much blood? Mackenzie Fierceton, 23, originally from St. Louis, Missouri, possesses a bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and planned to utilize the scholarship to pursue a Ph.D. in social . Fierceton, according to Penn's response, had learned during her parents' divorce how to make calls to the child-abuse hotline and that teachers were mandatory reporters. And we have our own specific grad school definitions. First of all, thats one box? And Penn is still claiming that those are fake journals. At first she went to a friend's home in Ohio and then returned to the Philadelphia area as May and graduation approached to live with a classmate's family. "[2][j], The evening the story ran, Ruderman called Fierceton back and told her she had received some anonymously written emails casting doubt on what she had written. And Im like: I dont know what else I could give them that would possibly convince them if their belief is as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old was journaling about my experience of abuse and hiding it in an air vent, and it was actually secretly all a plan to like accuse my mother of abuse and go into foster care so I could have a sad story. RG: And because you were not just low-income, actually no income, other than the jobs that you were working nobody has complained about the low-income one, right? A trial was held in early 2019 at which she, Fierceton, a psychologist and a DSS investigator testified. In other words, if you are parent who says that you are wishing your daughter well and youre telling the authorities that shes just mentally ill and its just a really, really sad and tragic case that shes making up all of these allegations of abuse and throwing herself down stairs, and beating herself up all for cries for help, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera you wouldnt then also pursue a multi-year long effort to destroy her life. Fierceton's mother's supporters have maintained that her daughter was an emotionally manipulative girl who injured herself and fabricated other aspects of the abuse in order to become a more appealing candidate for admission to an Ivy League college such as the University of Pennsylvania. Picture: University of Pennsylvania/Instagram. MF: Yeah. Im curious, having dealt with so many people along the way, who are questioning your story, how do you feel like the boxes play into this? The situation was further complicated by a lack of cell phone service in the basement, requiring students to team up and verbally relay information from the 9-1-1 operator to a professor performing CPR on Driver and back to a student posted just outside the door. And I ended up reading the comments, and the comments were just horrendous. Shes lying, shes a spoiled brat, this, that, and the other which looking back at the time I just felt absolutely horrible. And you saw that playing out right away, right, when your biological mother was first arrested? You had mentioned that you actually made a transcript of your interview with Deputy Provost Finkelstein shortly after the conversation. Penn filed a 130-page response two weeks later, denying all her allegations of wrongdoing and saying that the university officials and co-defendants who had investigated the case were unaware of the Driver lawsuit when they did. How many people kind of fit that category that you interacted with, and how many kind of fit closer to your category, not just in your own interactions, but also in your research? And because you were not just low-income, actually no income, other than the jobs that you were working nobody has complained about the low-income one, right? My understanding is there were two anonymous emails. 2020 College graduate Mackenzie Fierceton (Photo from Mackenzie Fierceton). And then as the different internships, and then I went to get my masters in social work and all of this happened, I started to see that continue in different capacities while I was in different roles, seeing that theme in this relationship between foster care and the criminal justice system. And so thats the low-income box. [10], Fierceton, who outside of school had also taken on a volunteer position as a birthing doula, decided during that summer to apply for a Rhodes Scholarship to get a Ph.D. at Oxford University in England, encouraged by a classmate who had just won one himself and was impressed by her activism. And how much confidence do you have that that anonymous complainer was Carrie, your biological mother. Thats the reality of it, but we dont want to think of it that way. But it did open with these literary elements of what I was feeling like, and the experience I was having in those moments. Yes, to my lawyer who communicated it to me. Like questioning: How much blood? For all the readers could have known, there could have been a videotape of it happening. And so I was like, of course, Im going to respond again. I think they have said, well, theres different definitions and the dean who is the dean of the grad school said: Well, thats not our definition. MF: Absolutely. What kind of a group is that? And theres also literature thats economic literature versus sociology, different fields have different perspectives on what that relationship between foster care and the criminal justice system is and what the causes are. So I started while I was an undergrad and was taking classes at the same time. And I think its true. Because that was one of the ones that really blew my mind. And thats an unfortunate reality so many survivors experience, not having a lot of documentation. Im part of a wrongful death lawsuit that was filed in August, 2020. At her request Penn kept her contact information out of the school's directory on its website. And how much did she challenge your medical condition after that beating? Enough bruises? Smith said he believed the university had decided before it began investigating that Fierceton's abuse allegations were false and that she had fabricated them with the goal of finding an easier way into Penn or another elite school. So therefore that doesnt fit their understanding of low-income, despite the fact that your mother was no longer your legal guardian, youre a ward of the state. Mackenzie told the police her mother had pushed her down the stairs and struck her in the face. Its virtually almost an unknown phenomena or to people who are working in the field, its certainly known, but theres been very little research on it, which partially complicates my Ph.D., because theres so little to draw upon. who was, I believe now, the acting provost. What was the response from the readers of the paper? The dean of SP2 told Penn otherwise, but Fierceton noted that the school had never shared what its definition was. [2], In the early 2000s the couple went through a protracted divorce during which a guardian ad litem was appointed to represent their daughter's interests at the custody hearing. She helped SP2 assistant professor Toorjo Ghose draft and promote a petition in support of Police Free Penn, an activist group calling on the university to cut its ties with the Philadelphia Police Department over its poor relations with the largely black and Latin residents of the West Philadelphia neighborhoods around the university's campus, and rethink its own police department, the largest private one in the state. Its a very under-researched field. Teen Mom alum Mackenzie Edwards' husband Ryan Edwards is to be arrested soon. Yeah. Or is this something thats been overlooked? I have all these three kinds of different rationale and corroborations. Penn acknowledged that, for that reason, it could not state definitely that those events did not take place but still, "the way [she] presents this information invites the reader to speculate when she herself states she does not have a clear recollection of the nature of this event, if it occurred. Because processes become Kafkaesque very quickly. The Inquirer story came out in November 2020. That night at home, Morrison, who had apparently learned of the report, confronted her daughter about it. Like you said, theres also the cultural stereotype of like Orphan Annie and Oliver Twist of what these kinds of kids are supposed to look like that starts so early on in, and deep in the culture or media that we encounter that I think really ingrains that into people. And youre getting instruction from a university official that that's how you're supposed to fill it out, that's what the definition says online. Penn again spoke with Morrison and, this time as well, the St. Louis County prosecutor who had decided to drop the charges, without informing Fierceton, which the university defended as standard practice not to identify witnesses interviewed. And now they have to face the fact that someone who looks like them, who shares all these identities with them, could be the source of all of this harm. And the staff member saying like: I understand, can you please give Mackenzie an estimate of how many questions are left? It was: Shes a spoiled little brat. Right. Like some students do have a story, more like me where they had some kind of separation from their family; other students their parents were doctors or lawyers or Ph.D. students in other countries, but then they came here and their degrees no longer, essentially, counted or people who are just first-generation and not necessarily low-income or people who are low-income, but not first-generation. Yes, it may be true that institutions like UPenn give students like Fierceton opportunities because of their story, but that does not mean her narrative is theirs for the taking. You know, I honestly dont know. [2], Fierceton remained in the hospital, where DSS ordered her placed in protective custody. She didnt know any of the circumstances of his death. We need to stay on task. Penn also noted that her name change had the effect, whether she had intended it or not, of making her background harder to research. Those investigations revealed that for the first 17 years of her life, Fierceton was raised by her mother, Dr. Carrie Morrison, an accomplished physician. Fierceton described herself as a first-generation college applicant who came from a low-income, foster-care background. MF: Just a quick circling back, Im actually not sure if it was her who first reached out or if it was General Counsel Wendy White, because I later found out that they had a phone call about 36 hours after the article came out and seemed to talk pretty extensively, and then there were a lot of emails that happened. Because processes become Kafkaesque very quickly. MF: At first there was actually, there was contention. Thank you so much for having me. Instead, I want to talk more about what this says about the system, that something so seemingly irrational could be produced by this system, and actually could be predicted to be produced by this system in some ways. MF: Yeah, so Penn First for the whole FGLI community. And then there was this other foster sibling who was the biological kid of the foster parents I was staying with, and spelling it out in that way. And eventually they filed a big wrongful death lawsuit in August 2020. So Rachel had it and Penn disputed it. And then as the different internships, and then I went to get my masters in social work and all of this happened, I started to see that continue in different capacities while I was in different roles, seeing that theme in this relationship between foster care and the criminal justice system. But Mackenzie Fierceton is not a liar. Its hard to say. And that dynamic, I would say, [laughs] probably played a big part in all of this. Anything interesting in that that you noticed? RG: Right. Ryan Grim: This weeks guest on Deconstructed is Mackenzie Fierceton, who was the subject of a recent story in The New Yorker. Again, this is obviously secondhand, because I was unconscious. [c] Chewing was difficult as well, and she had a feeding tube inserted. And to me, I'm like I am a household of one, so I am the only person in my family. MF: No, I found it before. I was in this private school with a lot of upper-middle class or wealthy white students. And I think its true. She considered the advantages and disadvantages of reporting her mother, but ultimately feared she might not even be believed, as her mother would tell people she was mentally ill or lying. The Chronicle reports that although she spent her final year of high school in foster care, the student had grown up in an affluent suburb of St. Louis with her mother, a radiologist, and attended private schools. And those other people are kind of like the orphans that we think of in Dickensian novels. At school, she began confiding about her situation with a history teacher, telling them about her mother's physical abuse. It, too, alleged that Fierceton was misrepresenting herself as having been poor and grown up entirely in foster care, with many photos of Fierceton as a little girl on the beach and riding horses, and other activities usually associated with affluence. Mackenzie Fierceton: Yeah. But its relevant to financial aid and the student should check whatever box is going to give them most access to financial aid, which would be yes to both questions. And I think said something along the lines of there were things missing and it was distorted. Fierceton considered dropping out, but "if I truly can't do this, where am I supposed to return to? She entered foster care only at the age of 17, after making a complaint of abuse against Dr.. And then I remembered that my teacher had told me to write a gratitude list. RG: And so, like I mentioned earlier, I dont want to go over too much of the history that led up to your battle with Penn and with the Rhodes trust, because people can find that in The New Yorker article that came out recently, you went over that in some pretty decent length; in Katie Courics podcast in a recent interview there. RG: And all of us, no matter what our situation, are not completely safe from it. [1]:111112, In her Intercept interview, Grim recounts how this was reported in The New Yorker and asks "So how is a person who is filling out this application supposed to know what definition youre supposed to use?" At the University of Pennsylvania, she received a bachelor's degree in political science and a master's degree in social work through a combined five-year program. Whereas a social worker comes into a poor home and looks around and sees just the normal poverty that our system has foisted on people and says: Oh, well, clearly this is somebody that needs to be stripped out of here. [7] The charges against Lovelace were dropped later for lack of evidence. Our theme music was composed by Bart Warshaw. was truthful, Rafaelle feared that Penn might share its information with the government and if the U.S. Attorney decided to pursue a prosecution, it would be likely to last a long time and consume much of her attention. Why would I do that? And I also think we have this racist and classist notion of who can be an abuser or who can cause harm. Its virtually almost an unknown phenomena or to people who are working in the field, its certainly known, but theres been very little research on it, which partially complicates my Ph.D., because theres so little to draw upon. [2][h], In January 2020[4] Fierceton had a seizure and collapsed during a class for one of her graduate social work courses. And so I was like, of course, Im going to respond again. And when I asked her again when I was gathering all this evidence in 2020, she gave me the same answer of: I dont believe its relevant, and this box isnt relevant to admission. Like, it seemed like an airtight case from my perspective. "[2], That feeling was not mutual, Fierceton came to suspect. So, yes, an article came out in the local paper saying that she had been arrested. Fierceton is the 31st Penn student to be chosen as a Rhodes Scholar since the distinguished program's start in 1902. And I ended up reading the comments, and the comments were just horrendous. In 2019, Fierceton testified in a court hearing that, in September 2014, her mother allegedly pushed her down a set of stairs and hit her in the face several times. Yes. Her mother had no explanation for the injuries, other than saying perhaps she had done it to herself. Cause I had assumed it was her. RG: So, to cut into the interview here real quick, I wanted to add that Mackenzie is referring to a letter sent to the Rhodes Trust in December 2020. RG: Mhmm. And how much confidence do you have that that anonymous complainer was Carrie, your biological mother. And then the other question was: Are you the first in your family to attend college? And I suspected that it was about this anonymous email. And especially, again, like these stereotypes of black and brown, low-income families, the knee-jerk reaction is like: Oh, well, theyre unequipped to be a parent. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to also check out Intercepted as well as Murderville, which is now in its second season. One of them, to me, felt pretty clear that it was probably from someone in my biological family, because it had photos of me; it had very specific information that very few people would have and I dont think many people would have random childhood photos of me. Cause Ive just wanted to go on with my life and, you know, live it. But part of it is funding decisions. And one of the main things they pointed to was that she had gone to this private school . So the students had to form a human chain from the first floor down to the basement where all our classes are to relay instructions from the paramedics, the Philadelphia paramedics, to the professor who was, to my understanding, performing CPR. I asked specifically about those boxes and the answer I got was again, this was multiple years ago, but it was something along the lines of I dont think that biological parents are relevant to this. Like you said, I was called into a meeting. That would have to be the rationale that they would have for those childhood journals to be faked. And its no offense its not like the most profound . And if you read it aloud, its almost exactly the length of the phone call. When she was a teenager, she showed up bloodied and bruised at her elite private school. Fierceton grew up in a wealthy community and attended an elite private school in a St. Louis suburb. RG: Like, those two things dont fit together. Our grad school had no specific definitions or instructions, but I did have a relationship with the associate director of admissions at the time. MF: You know, I believe the first people who said that was the Rhodes Trust. I said were almost done. So normally the term FGLI, its just an umbrella term for both. In her reading, Tracy came across an article that congratulated Mackenzie Fierceton, a University of Pennsylvania graduate, on being named a Rhodes Scholar. She did not remember what had caused it. And still, it was just like: Nope. But it doesnt mean you were always low-income, just that you are now. I do think that it is a huge defense mechanism that people deploy. And again, people, including Penn administrators, have the perception of I think the stereotype and my friend Anea Moore, whos a Rhodes Scholar and graduate of Penn who founded Penn first or co-founded it had a really great quote in The New Yorker about we arent all, quote-unquote something along the lines of like impoverished, inner city kids who go to crumbling public schools as the wider media portrays us to be. It quotes her as saying "If you find me dead, it was my mom. And did they say anything along those lines? I was a teenager and I was in the hospital and I didnt have any perspective. That evening that the article came out is when I got a call from the reporter saying: I got this anonymous email that said X, Y, Z, and I wanted to let you know. Asked about Lovelace's alleged sexual abuse, specifically an incident the year before where Fierceton, having fallen asleep in her mother's bed, woke to find him caressing her breasts, Morrison expressed amusement at the possibility that her boyfriend could have mistaken her teenage daughter for her; Lovelace, interviewed separately, denied all the allegations. She had bruises all over her body in different stages of healing an obvious sign of child abuse.. And then throughout the now a year and a half process [laughs] of different sort of invented processes that happened, eventually the university was like: OK, I guess shes low-income. Just like some basic questions [laughs] and then a lot of detailed questions about my application. But that was definitely a driving force for why I decided, ultimately, to withdraw because I felt like: OK, federal prison is no joke. But I agreed to come into this Zoom meeting and this was the last day of November 2020. To me, it seems like any reader of the English language would read that in a literary sense , RG: of its self-exploration, self-doubt, trauma. She expressed some concern to Penn staff that if she won, the media attention might incite her mother and her family to attack her reputation, and expressed on a form she filed with Penn as part of the process a concern of hers that FGLI students such as herself were "pressured to be someone they were not amidst their application process." I think there were almost 30 of those letters again, very similar to who had given statements in the past to corroborate my abuse as well as leaders in the FGLI community saying yes, we started this community. And please go and leave us a rating or a review it helps people find the show. Another program official that year recalls Fierceton as seeming more vulnerable than she let on; after picking her up from the hospital following bone surgery that year, she noticed that Fierceton had a very light winter coat and few other possessions. My understanding is there were two anonymous emails. So you use what you have, uh, which are the definitions that were already out there. [2], Almost three months later, The New Yorker ran a longer article about Fierceton, which had taken the magazine eight months to report and fact-check. In 2020, former foster child Mackenzie Fierceton received a Rhodes Scholarship as a self-identified first generation, low income student at the University of Pennsylvania. in America. [2][e], A spokesman for the D.A. A week later, Brandt interviewed Morrison again at the police station; this time she said that her daughter had injured herself, saying "I guess she has more problems than I thought." So to me it was pretty clear that it likely came from them. One home, during her junior year of high school, was so "toxic" and crammed with other foster kids that she left for weeks at a time, sleeping each night on a carousel of couches at the homes of various friends, she said. And again, people, including Penn administrators, have the perception of I think the stereotype and my friend Anea Moore, whos a Rhodes Scholar and graduate of Penn who founded Penn first or co-founded it had a really great quote in The New Yorker about we arent all, quote-unquote something along the lines of like impoverished, inner city kids who go to crumbling public schools as the wider media portrays us to be. And that was the end of it, right? But its interesting because most of the questions are about these applications and then the second half is when it turns to these questions of the abuse. 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